@jasonw22 So is SL, so is Myspace, so are a LOT of things online. ;)
@ianbetteridge Since I didn't say why there was gonna be hell to pay, I can answer your question from a tech slant. Jaiku is functionally better (I believe also they'll ADD features that users like, you know, ask for), Twitter has a much higher recreational and scattered workflow for conversation. Of the posts I've made here, it would have taken gobs of tweets over the past week. And I've been more productive (a thing other power-users say doesn't happen much even though 'all their friends are there')
I'm not sure I like the IM notifications of these apps.. I personally use phone web interfaces (SMS really feels so old fashioned), but I can use Jaiku and then have to use some other mobile app for Twitter since people like iTweet etc do Twitter better than Twitter does Twitter. Open APIs for the win!
SMS is old fashioned, but it will work anywhere in the world you have GSM - which has to be important for something that's at least as much about presence as it is about messaging/conversation. IM is horribly sucky - but, again, it's lowest common denominator wherever you have a basic computer and need instant updates. Yes, open APIs and apps are the best option: I'm using both Twitterific and Juku on my Mac, and when I'm using my Nokia phone the Jaiku app. I just wish there was a Blackberry version of the Jaiku app - that would make me a very happy bunny.
I'll probably continue to use Jaiku (as intended, a place for more structured conversation, kind of like a quiet meeting place) as well as Twitter (as intended, a place for shouting across a crowded room, more of a "party" atmosphere).
Don't really see any need to go any crusades for or against any of this stuff, people will do whatever they want.
And I love desktop apps for interacting with Jaiku and Twitter.
@jasonw22 we're myopics, it's what we do... there are three bloggers polluting techmeme a la SEO 2.0 with "Why xxxxxxxxx Sucks" or "Why Posting An Innocent Question to Hide the Attack Is An Amazing Tactic But It Gets Us Linkage" type posts. (I've done it too, but it seemingly is getting worse lately)
What's wrong with using both? Jaiku doesn't widely support SMS yet once it does, I can see that there will be more competition between the two. Even then, if I have friends on both networks expect to play in both networks.
@jasonw22 Yeah, that's like logical n shit. This is the business-model-less world and uh conversational something or what, god I need to read the book again.
@SeekGround I do use both, I only stopped using Twitter for a week for Jaiku (which I had used for a while), to see if my world would zomg fall apart. Which naturally, it didn't. If anything, there's more a point in all this for the religious.
There's some serious arrogance out there by our so-called leaders about apps. It needs to be smacked down a notch. Look at all the multimedia-style Twitter apps out there, and the one that gets all the oooh ahh is Loic's? Cuz why, he's Loic?
That's a conversation we've already had but yeah. Don't think I disagree with any of y'all. As much as I hate all the Web 2.0 nonsense, I do know that I easily live it. Ironic, that.
Jeff, have you USED Utterz, et al? Oh are we just gonna play the famous-bloggers-make-software game.
This is why I believe the Jaiku purchased pissed so many off. It wasn't Evhead or Kevin Rose. Some random guys in Finland. And God Bless The Random Guys.
One gripe about Jaiku that hopefully gets resolved: teh mobile web version is ultra lame. Format is wak and there's hells of white space.
One gripe about what everyone keeps saying is one of Jaiku's most awesome aspects: Jaiku has a mobile app, and it is for Nokia only. Nokia's been losing market share in the states, and that's where I live. I, for one, ditched Nokia about 3 years ago. I daresay never to return. Unless there is a hidden mobile app that is floating about that I missed in all my digging, and I have dug.
Threads are good. I see some minor user interface issues I would love to see resolved, but whatever. I like Jaiku, and it isn't throwing up upside birds on an hourly basis either!
@tastybit - WRT the mobile version (and everything, actually) constructive critique can always be sent to jaiku@jaiku.com (or mentioned in threads that we monitor - best place for that is either #wishku or #jaiku ).
@ericrice - IRCers often = oldschool elitists. I get almost constant (well, daily) mockery for involvement in 'that web 2.0 thing') from a certain peer group, most of whom are actively avoiding even facebook.
IRC seems convoluted and overly complex to folk raised with actual usability :)
@malach thanks... I hadn't even gotten that far. Participating in the convo as a bit of a Jaiku n00b... which is always a good way to try to look at things anyway.
Will do that though, which is better than "@twitter" over in twitterville. They have never replied ;-)
@ericrice - I think 'can be' rather than 'are'. It's very hard for me to judge, most of the IRC channels I'm actively involved with (including that one) I've been around for 3+ years - some for more than 10 years (off and on... but far more on than off), compared to less than a year for my most active social networking experience (here).
The main IRC channels I'm involved in are also geographically limited somewhat (at least in terms of origin), so there's been more f2f interaction - often involving beer :)
@tastybit - asking there doesn't guarantee that the team will do what you're after, of course, but it pretty much guarantees that they'll see what you're suggesting. I try to reply to most request/suggest threads in #jaiku, just so people know they're being listened to, and I link these threads in the internal wiki for future roadmap discussions.
@malach, good point (time + beer = friendship, ha!) :-) In addition to the community lifespan aspect, IRC might also sometimes lend itself to more personal/intimate relationships because the "size" of the channel is "smaller".
@jasonw22 - I think that certain levels of privacy help as well - if I say something on IRC, I'm moderately sure that only the people I can see in the channel are reading it - and if I'm not comfortable with that, then I can direct message.
@malach, "privacy" is kind of an illusion though, even in IRC (I'm sure you've seen bash.org before). But I agree that the illusion is a useful one. If the "privacy" were too real, it would be difficult for new folks to join a community. It's more of a veil than a lock.
@jasonw22 i'd agree, and also, as much as I am in the business of ego, most of my meaningful relationships come from social back channels. I'm also amused at throwing the word 'social' in front of everything.
Except 'social shitting', but meh, it wouldn't surprise me, yanno?
wow was thinking how long Eric had not blogged and I think I got my fix on this post and threads. Of course I'll have to wait until A-Listers tell me what to think but... xD
Hey we should be lucky there are no spammers who quietly, patiently, rub their hands together waiting for the ego chamber to Make Things Happen.
Social Networks vs. Social Marketing vs. Social Meaningfulness are all different things. Aren't they?
How much are we supposed to ram our tech ghetto down other people's throats? I feel like software tech types (read: the blogosphere) are kicking off that Real Estate Agent vibe.
It's all becoming a giant mailing list maker. What else do you do with a rolodex of 12,000 people? Sell.
(actually, to be authentic, I should break apart all the comments and post them individually like the morally superior Twitter, cuz you know, conversation and all 'where our friends are' etc and so on.
No seriously, this is a ridiculous conversation. In the back channels and the normal parts of life, the 'issue' of friends limitations is looked upon with a giant WTF. Ignore the fact that the indigenous people of Facebook thinks we are old, fat, and egomaniacal.
In Snowcrash, there is a thing called a Gargoyle. Read up on it, and tell me the comparisons.
You're never ever going to see the problem, Robert. It's an extremely complicated one to attempt to explain, that's why I think lots of folks aren't able to get through.
At least by the numbers, it makes you a great target, as well as all your friends, for mining of data. Any ONE person in your network can scrape a lot of info to sell against.
That whole conversation about the other side of social network users bill of rights, you sorta missed. What about the bill of rights for the power users of a network. You could turn evil overnight, and like, wow, that's a lot of data.
I think of this as "lateral blogging," ninety degrees from the "vertical" semi-conversations that happen on a conventional blog.
Of course, that's just another way to compare the exclamatory and the conversational. Guess it all depends on how much control you want or need (over your own site, or with the commentators here). Personally, I like the working without the net [with all due respect to eric> heh].
BTW, there's a great backchannel conversation about how social network 'friends' might contain fanboiz, lunchboxers, wannabes and others that want to associate with so-called famous people. Meaning in that someplace when you hit the Big Limits of sites. You might be getting played on accident.
I also find it amusing that the whole friend thing is SO inefficient...if you're that much of a personality, then create a group...which, um, actually has a bunch of extra tools that make it much easier / better to communicate with people.......
Shush, Ian, I'm holding court, yo. And also bitching about how my Halo 3 file share won't let me move a photo over to my service record, so I can put a nice epic screenshot as my service photo. Which is irritating cuz Bungie.net lags in getting pics sent from the Xbox. But, yeah, THAT is some off-topic shizz. I'll start a new thread for that.
eric, who told you this was your thread? Now, about the mice that'd running around my garden... poison, or should I just let the cat out to get them more? :)
58 comments so far
So what do you think? Twitter, Jaiku, or both? Maybe start posting with TwitKu? :)
2 years, 1 month ago by ianbetteridge
If Twitter is so awful, why waste your breath there?
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
I noticed that TwitKu users can be somewhat annoying on Jaiku, because they don't use comments.
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
Yeah, that's true - and that's one of the big selling points of Jaiku for me. Conversations, no yet another broadcast system! :)
2 years, 1 month ago by ianbetteridge
@jasonw22 So is SL, so is Myspace, so are a LOT of things online. ;)
@ianbetteridge Since I didn't say why there was gonna be hell to pay, I can answer your question from a tech slant. Jaiku is functionally better (I believe also they'll ADD features that users like, you know, ask for), Twitter has a much higher recreational and scattered workflow for conversation. Of the posts I've made here, it would have taken gobs of tweets over the past week. And I've been more productive (a thing other power-users say doesn't happen much even though 'all their friends are there')
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
I'm not sure I like the IM notifications of these apps.. I personally use phone web interfaces (SMS really feels so old fashioned), but I can use Jaiku and then have to use some other mobile app for Twitter since people like iTweet etc do Twitter better than Twitter does Twitter. Open APIs for the win!
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
SMS is old fashioned, but it will work anywhere in the world you have GSM - which has to be important for something that's at least as much about presence as it is about messaging/conversation. IM is horribly sucky - but, again, it's lowest common denominator wherever you have a basic computer and need instant updates. Yes, open APIs and apps are the best option: I'm using both Twitterific and Juku on my Mac, and when I'm using my Nokia phone the Jaiku app. I just wish there was a Blackberry version of the Jaiku app - that would make me a very happy bunny.
2 years, 1 month ago by ianbetteridge
I'll probably continue to use Jaiku (as intended, a place for more structured conversation, kind of like a quiet meeting place) as well as Twitter (as intended, a place for shouting across a crowded room, more of a "party" atmosphere).
Don't really see any need to go any crusades for or against any of this stuff, people will do whatever they want.
And I love desktop apps for interacting with Jaiku and Twitter.
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
@ianbetteridge that doesn't make it RIGHT though heheh
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
@jasonw22 we're myopics, it's what we do... there are three bloggers polluting techmeme a la SEO 2.0 with "Why xxxxxxxxx Sucks" or "Why Posting An Innocent Question to Hide the Attack Is An Amazing Tactic But It Gets Us Linkage" type posts. (I've done it too, but it seemingly is getting worse lately)
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
Also, http://flickr.com/photos/ericrice/1571287553/ nehehe
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
I try to tune it out. Attacks, defense, blah blah blah. It's just software. Use it or don't.
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
What's wrong with using both? Jaiku doesn't widely support SMS yet once it does, I can see that there will be more competition between the two. Even then, if I have friends on both networks expect to play in both networks.
2 years, 1 month ago by SeekGround
@jasonw22 Yeah, that's like logical n shit. This is the business-model-less world and uh conversational something or what, god I need to read the book again.
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
C'mon, eric. Don't tell me you couldn't get the whole pic of the conversation thread in there.... Ha!
2 years, 1 month ago by LEMills
@SeekGround I do use both, I only stopped using Twitter for a week for Jaiku (which I had used for a while), to see if my world would zomg fall apart. Which naturally, it didn't. If anything, there's more a point in all this for the religious.
There's some serious arrogance out there by our so-called leaders about apps. It needs to be smacked down a notch. Look at all the multimedia-style Twitter apps out there, and the one that gets all the oooh ahh is Loic's? Cuz why, he's Loic?
That's a conversation we've already had but yeah. Don't think I disagree with any of y'all. As much as I hate all the Web 2.0 nonsense, I do know that I easily live it. Ironic, that.
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
Hahaha I just popped over to Twitter (I never said I was gonna stop reading it) and saw this: http://twitter.com/JeffClavier/statuses/335674002
Jeff, have you USED Utterz, et al? Oh are we just gonna play the famous-bloggers-make-software game.
This is why I believe the Jaiku purchased pissed so many off. It wasn't Evhead or Kevin Rose. Some random guys in Finland. And God Bless The Random Guys.
And Malach too!
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
Does that mean I'm not random? Or just not in Finland? :)
2 years, 1 month ago by malach
@malach You are randomly not in Finland. <3
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
I like whatever Eric likes because he's famous.
2 years, 1 month ago by baba
@baba hahahaha remind me to sign your teet next time I see you. Or did I mean tweet. Lulz.
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
One gripe about Jaiku that hopefully gets resolved: teh mobile web version is ultra lame. Format is wak and there's hells of white space.
One gripe about what everyone keeps saying is one of Jaiku's most awesome aspects: Jaiku has a mobile app, and it is for Nokia only. Nokia's been losing market share in the states, and that's where I live. I, for one, ditched Nokia about 3 years ago. I daresay never to return. Unless there is a hidden mobile app that is floating about that I missed in all my digging, and I have dug.
Threads are good. I see some minor user interface issues I would love to see resolved, but whatever. I like Jaiku, and it isn't throwing up upside birds on an hourly basis either!
2 years, 1 month ago by tastybit
Some of us are noticing that the superstars of social media don't do IRC, and many IRCers I know think socmedia/nets are retarded. Pattern?
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
@tastybit - WRT the mobile version (and everything, actually) constructive critique can always be sent to jaiku@jaiku.com (or mentioned in threads that we monitor - best place for that is either #wishku or #jaiku ).
2 years, 1 month ago by malach
@ericrice - IRCers often = oldschool elitists. I get almost constant (well, daily) mockery for involvement in 'that web 2.0 thing') from a certain peer group, most of whom are actively avoiding even facebook.
IRC seems convoluted and overly complex to folk raised with actual usability :)
2 years, 1 month ago by malach
@malach thanks... I hadn't even gotten that far. Participating in the convo as a bit of a Jaiku n00b... which is always a good way to try to look at things anyway.
Will do that though, which is better than "@twitter" over in twitterville. They have never replied ;-)
2 years, 1 month ago by tastybit
@malach Don't you find that the relationships are more meaningful there? (Disclaimer, me and malach are in the same IRC channel)
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
@ericrice - I think 'can be' rather than 'are'. It's very hard for me to judge, most of the IRC channels I'm actively involved with (including that one) I've been around for 3+ years - some for more than 10 years (off and on... but far more on than off), compared to less than a year for my most active social networking experience (here).
The main IRC channels I'm involved in are also geographically limited somewhat (at least in terms of origin), so there's been more f2f interaction - often involving beer :)
2 years, 1 month ago by malach
@tastybit - asking there doesn't guarantee that the team will do what you're after, of course, but it pretty much guarantees that they'll see what you're suggesting. I try to reply to most request/suggest threads in #jaiku, just so people know they're being listened to, and I link these threads in the internal wiki for future roadmap discussions.
2 years, 1 month ago by malach
@malach, good point (time + beer = friendship, ha!) :-) In addition to the community lifespan aspect, IRC might also sometimes lend itself to more personal/intimate relationships because the "size" of the channel is "smaller".
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
@jasonw22 ah, and we start to see a rift in social media... the "LOOK AT ME AND MY IDEAS AND PRODUCTS" vs. 'Heya."
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
@jasonw22 - I think that certain levels of privacy help as well - if I say something on IRC, I'm moderately sure that only the people I can see in the channel are reading it - and if I'm not comfortable with that, then I can direct message.
Both things that we currently lack here :)
2 years, 1 month ago by malach
New meme: Social Media (Social Marketing) vs. Social Meaningfulness. Discuss. And leave your Mahalo ads out of it.
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
@ericrice, that rift is a bit ironic, since I'm far more likely to listen to your ideas if you are capable of saying "Heya" first.
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
Personally, I feel that "marketing" in general is an anti-social activity.
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
@malach, "privacy" is kind of an illusion though, even in IRC (I'm sure you've seen bash.org before). But I agree that the illusion is a useful one. If the "privacy" were too real, it would be difficult for new folks to join a community. It's more of a veil than a lock.
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
@jasonw22 i'd agree, and also, as much as I am in the business of ego, most of my meaningful relationships come from social back channels. I'm also amused at throwing the word 'social' in front of everything.
Except 'social shitting', but meh, it wouldn't surprise me, yanno?
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
Saturday Night Live did a skit about the love toilet a long time ago...
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
Social Shitting from the folks at Niagra Love Toilet: http://www.rollonvideo.com/izlelvNiagra%20Love%20Toilet...0E3E6CF133E141D28D9D906AB34716E9.html
2 years, 1 month ago by jasonw22
wow was thinking how long Eric had not blogged and I think I got my fix on this post and threads. Of course I'll have to wait until A-Listers tell me what to think but... xD
2 years, 1 month ago by bbluesman
My comment on Scoble 's blog which was eaten by spam filters or Akismet reads as follows:
http://scobleizer.com/2007/10/14/the-you-dont-need-more-friends-lobby/
/me facepalms.
Hey we should be lucky there are no spammers who quietly, patiently, rub their hands together waiting for the ego chamber to Make Things Happen.
Social Networks vs. Social Marketing vs. Social Meaningfulness are all different things. Aren't they?
How much are we supposed to ram our tech ghetto down other people's throats? I feel like software tech types (read: the blogosphere) are kicking off that Real Estate Agent vibe.
It's all becoming a giant mailing list maker. What else do you do with a rolodex of 12,000 people? Sell.
http://ericrice.jaiku.com/presence/14322053
(actually, to be authentic, I should break apart all the comments and post them individually like the morally superior Twitter, cuz you know, conversation and all 'where our friends are' etc and so on.
No seriously, this is a ridiculous conversation. In the back channels and the normal parts of life, the 'issue' of friends limitations is looked upon with a giant WTF. Ignore the fact that the indigenous people of Facebook thinks we are old, fat, and egomaniacal.
In Snowcrash, there is a thing called a Gargoyle. Read up on it, and tell me the comparisons.
You're never ever going to see the problem, Robert. It's an extremely complicated one to attempt to explain, that's why I think lots of folks aren't able to get through.
At least by the numbers, it makes you a great target, as well as all your friends, for mining of data. Any ONE person in your network can scrape a lot of info to sell against.
That whole conversation about the other side of social network users bill of rights, you sorta missed. What about the bill of rights for the power users of a network. You could turn evil overnight, and like, wow, that's a lot of data.
Anyway, food for thought.
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
@bbluesman ha, never listen to A-listers, srlsy
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
I think of this as "lateral blogging," ninety degrees from the "vertical" semi-conversations that happen on a conventional blog.
Of course, that's just another way to compare the exclamatory and the conversational. Guess it all depends on how much control you want or need (over your own site, or with the commentators here). Personally, I like the working without the net [with all due respect to eric> heh].
2 years, 1 month ago by LEMills
Quick, Malach, suggest a feature that tells people when others are posting in comments at the same time! (yeah, I know.... #devku...)
2 years, 1 month ago by LEMills
How do we know you won't turn evil..heh. Or haven't already?? lol
2 years, 1 month ago by bbluesman
I'm evil allright, what with the indie media/big media hybridism i've adopted or something. Heh.
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
Just remember that evil=live backwards..or something Mwahaha
2 years, 1 month ago by bbluesman
http://www.seesmic.com/ Man, it sure would be cool to have money for some huge offices from a cool new startup.
2 years, 1 month ago by ChristianBurns
Yeah, I was wondering about Utterz and others. Loic's got cash money. Heh.
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
I am so out of the buzz-o-sphere (gag), I hadn't even heard of that one until here....
2 years, 1 month ago by malach
BTW, there's a great backchannel conversation about how social network 'friends' might contain fanboiz, lunchboxers, wannabes and others that want to associate with so-called famous people. Meaning in that someplace when you hit the Big Limits of sites. You might be getting played on accident.
Alpha Monkeys, sheesh.
Is this still on topic? I forget. xD
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
Topic drift is a time honoured tradition :)
2 years, 1 month ago by malach
I also find it amusing that the whole friend thing is SO inefficient...if you're that much of a personality, then create a group...which, um, actually has a bunch of extra tools that make it much easier / better to communicate with people.......
2 years, 1 month ago by boris
Hahaha and so I'm back on Twitter after a self-imposed week off. http://twitter.com/spin/statuses/336727622
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
Topic drift is just another word for "real conversations" :)
2 years, 1 month ago by ianbetteridge
Shush, Ian, I'm holding court, yo. And also bitching about how my Halo 3 file share won't let me move a photo over to my service record, so I can put a nice epic screenshot as my service photo. Which is irritating cuz Bungie.net lags in getting pics sent from the Xbox. But, yeah, THAT is some off-topic shizz. I'll start a new thread for that.
2 years, 1 month ago by ericrice
Very well put Ian-topic drift=real conversation-nice.
2 years, 1 month ago by bbluesman
eric, who told you this was your thread? Now, about the mice that'd running around my garden... poison, or should I just let the cat out to get them more? :)
2 years, 1 month ago by ianbetteridge